Psychiatrist and FOX News contributor Dr. Keith Ablow called in to the Howard Stern Show Thursday morning to defend his position that Chaz Bono's casting on Dancing with the Stars could be harmful to children who watch the show.
Read the summary of the Howard Steven-Keith Ablow debate over Chaz Bono on Dancing with the Stars
Read the complete transcript from Dr. Keith Ablow's call-in interview on Thursday's Howard Stern Show below
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Dr. Keith Ablow on the Howard Stern Show 09/08/2011
[HS=Howard Stern, KA=Keith Ablow, RQ=Robin Quivers]
HS:“I see our old friend Dr. Keith Ablow is on the phone. Let me talk to him a little bit. Hey Dr. Keith, are you going in a whole new direction kinda like?”
KA: “No no no. This is consistent with the Keith you know.”
HS: “I sense a career shift. He started hooking up with Glenn Beck and all the FOX News people and stuff. And I’m just wondering what’s going on there.”
KA: It’s just the national evolution of somebody who really cares about the truth which you know I’ve always tried to help you get there—to the truth.
HS: “But you’re becoming a—it seems a little bit silly with this homophobic stuff…You know I’m a fan but you’re getting a little off the wall.”
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KA: “First of all, let me say this. Were anyone to throw a rock at Chaz Bono, I’d step in front of him and take it for him. That’s not the issue here. Nobody should be in any way discriminating against this person, but here’s what I object to: when somebody has taken a really torturous path—literally having breasts removed, injecting oneself with hormones and is mid-stream in that process and wants ME and the rest of the nation and all of our kids to agree that he is a man—that’s reality bending. He’s not a man Howard.”HS: “Alright, let’s take this one step at a time. Number one, we know he doesn’t have a penis—which is the greatest thing to have as you know. But, think about kids for a second. Now, when I was a kid growing up everyone on TV was beautiful, sexy, ripped and in shape…Actors are good looking people. We now have a country filled with obese people. If TV was such a huge influence that it could screw a kid’s head up watching Chaz Bono and somehow confuse them, you’d have a country of people who are all ripped and all look great because of what they saw on TV. My point is that TV is, yes, an influence in a sense.
But, why it’s important that Chaz Bono be on Dancing with the Stars and be accepted is, there are a lot of people walking around who have gender issues, and they’re getting the s**t beaten out of them. So, if Chaz Bono goes on…and in front of children and families he can present himself as a nice guy or a nice woman or whatever you choose to call him, and say look: ‘My head might be screwed up, but you know what I’m a good person. I think I wanna be a guy, but I can’t have a penis, but I’m kind of growing a beard and this and that,’ it just says to children: ‘You know what? Maybe I could be a little more tolerant.’ Do you understand that?”
KA: “If that were what were happening here, I’d be aboard 1000%. But that’s not what’s happening.”
RQ: “But Keith, nothing’s happened yet. They just made the announcement.”
HS: “Keith, what’s going to happen in your mind. Let me hear what you think is going to happen.”
KA: “No, Robin—it’s not the dancing. Let’s be honest. This is the putting forward—they knew what would happen. They knew this would be a firestorm. This is the putting forward of an agenda. This is to suggest to all our kids that if they too are a little too uncomfortable with gender—maybe they’re tomboys—maybe they’re very sensitive, effeminate—even gay—boys. ‘Don’t stop there, Chaz would say. Consider whether-‘.”
HS: “Chaz wouldn’t say that. Chaz says he knew since he was five. He felt that he was in the wrong body. Whether that’s a psychological disorder or a legitimate disorder, what’s the difference? Listen, maybe we should discriminate against people who get nose jobs? I mean, what’s the diff? So what? So let’s say a bunch of kids grow up and get confused and cut their tits off. What do I care?
KA: “You care if it’s your kid man. And you care if it’s my kid.”
HS: “But if it makes them happy what do we care?”
KA: “Because it doesn’t make them happy.”
HS: “How do you know that?”
KA: “I know because I know that this is still a journey for this person. This is somebody addicted to food still. This is somebody…”
HS: “Well, it’s an unhappy person.”
KA: “Listen, had he come to Dr. Keith’s office we may have borrowed towards the truth that made him uncomfortable with his gender and he would have avoided the plastic surgeon’s office perhaps. But here’s an analogy: If a person came to me tattooed as a zebra: “Zebraman”…go on TV but if you want me to agree with you that you’re a zebra? Now you’re invading my reality.”
HS: “But you don’t have to agree. You could say you kids: ‘Hey, Chaz is a girl in my opinion because he still has his female private parts, but he likes to walk around dressed up like a man.”
KA: “But that’s not the subtext here. It’s dancing with a woman as a man. I’m not going to have my kid watch a show in which people pretend to be farm animals.”
HS: “Ah, you’re ridiculous.”
RQ: “I think you’re right that he’s going off into this Netherland of Wackiness where you yell about everything.”
HS: “Aren’t you writing books with Glenn Beck now?”
KA: “Well we wrote a tremendously helpful book which actually I know that you would applaud if you were to read it because it’s about exactly what you talk about. It’s about finding yourself. And it’s compatible with this because—I guess we’ve arrived now at the real issue. I care about finding yourself—and removing your breasts and having a vagina at the same time is not finding yourself man.”
HS: “Alright, tell me something: would you let your kids watch Sarah Palin?”
KA: “Sure.”
HS: “OK, Sarah Palin believes there’s a make believe man named Jesus and she’s based her life on it..and by the way a lot of people killed the Jews in the name of religion and they go around basing their decisions on a make believe character. We have George W. Bush who says he invaded Iraq after he consulted Jesus—a make believe man. Would you ever vote for George W. Bush for President after he makes a statement like that? It’s a delusional statement.”
KA: “Well, first of all, I disagree with the examples you’ve given. But if you agree with them…we’re at exactly the same moment. We stand on the same razor’s edge, you and I, philosophically. It’s so important now that we embrace the truth—it’s our only defense.”
HS: “But Chaz’s truth is that she believes she wants to be and Sarah Palin believes in a make believe guy and George W. Bush believes in a make believe guy.”
RQ: “What difference does it make if Chaz Bono wants to be—even if she didn’t have all these cosmetic changes—what difference does it make if she wants to be referred to as a man?”
KA: “Because number one it’s reality bending and it does damage to our culture and gender in general. Because it’s related to everything else that Howard referred to.”
RQ: “I’m perfectly find that Chaz doesn’t know what he is.”
KA: “My word to him is this. Take my hand. Look in my eyes. You’ll see I don’t hate you. Now listen: you’re not a man.”
HS: “My attitude is if Chaz wants me to say he’s a man, why not make him happy and say he’s a man?”
RQ: “Right. It doesn’t have any effect on me at all.”
HS: “And if Chaz wants to be a zebra and pretend he’s a zebra. I’ll go: ‘Hey Chaz. I’m gonna put you in the zoo. You’re a zebra.’”
RQ: “I don’t see this as a big deal.”
KA: “You want to shake people lose of their reality, you’re gonna see what happens. They won’t be able to recognize a fact for fiction—in foreign affairs, in the economy, in politics….”
RQ: “I think you’re taking this a little far.”
KA: “Robin I believe at some point you have to draw a line in the sand.”
KA: “Can’t I sit with Chaz…or maybe somebody…isn’t it important that his mother was a paragon of femininity….isn’t it important that he felt he couldn’t in any way compete with that.”
RQ: “You’re calling him a ‘he’.”
KA: “I don’t want to offend anybody.”
HS: “I still think Chaz has a place on TV.”
KA: “Groups are saying if someone is feeling uncomfortable with his or her gender, Chaz’s path is a rational one.”
HS: “Is transgenderism ever okay? And I say it’s okay.”
KA: “In the most extreme of cases where someone is sitting at home weeping…”
HS: “What do you think of people who tattoo their whole body…that’s extreme right?...If somebody wants to cut off their tits…There are women who are getting their tits enlarged…”
HS: “The idea that you’re putting out there that Chaz Bono shouldn’t be on TV because she might be confused is ridiculous. There’s so many confused people in the world it’s probably healthy for your kids to see somebody who’s ‘confused’.”
LATER:
HS: “Do you think homosexuality is an illness?”
KA: “I don’t think homosexuality is an illness. No.”
KA: “That’s their business.”
HS: “And so is this.”
KA: “This person is suggesting to our children: consider mutilating yourself.”
HS: “But that’s like saying don’t let anyone on TV who’s had plastic surgery. They’re mutilating themselves too.”
KA: “I would say the same thing. If you have someone who’s had a hundred procedures and is grotesque and is coming on TV.”
HS: “You think that makes kids want to do that.”
KA: “It mainstreams the behavior.”
KA: “What’s your initial reaction is your child comes home and says I’m not a boy, I’m a girl. I need to go to the plastic surgeon.”
HS: “I would say: You’re too young. I think you need to go through therapy and find out if this is a real thing or just—let’s find out. Maybe this is really your thing. And would I be happy about it? No. Because my kid would probably be miserable....I’d be sad because my kid would be sad. It’s gonna be a difficult life for them."
RQ: "Of course. Your child is telling you that you’re in pain."
KA: "No, you’re child is telling you that he or she is psychiatrically ill."
HS: "Not necessarily."
KA: "No, definitely. Definitely If you are inhabiting a male body and you believe yourself to be female you are essentially delusional."
KA: I hope you’d call me—in the middle of your darkest moment of your darkest night—please call me.
HS: “So what you’re telling me is that psychiatric illness is contagious?”
KA: “Correct. Correct.”
HS: “You’ve gone too far.”
KA: “When somebody’s not well you don’t hold them up as a paragon of virtue and compare them to civil rights leaders.”
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